108 vs 110 lobe separation

106 LSA: As you know, the intake and exhaust lobes centerline distance is known as lobe separation angle. The 112-degree cam (red lines) picked up much of the torque, but the big winner was the cam with the tightest lobe separation angle. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. My engine shop builds all kinds of hot rod motors, and they told me that because I am running a 4 speed manual, I will better be able to take advantage of the 108 LSA. It depends on the combination of engine size, head flow and head flow balance, as well as a big one, exhaust flow capabilities. If two cams are identical with the exception of lobe separation angle (we'll say 108 and 114) the cam with 114LSA will make more low end power than the 108LSA cam? That is why 106 LSA consumes less oil. For Example: A 110-degree lobe separation means that the peak opening points of the Intake and Exhaust lobes is 110 degrees apart. When degreeing in the camshaft, you are making sure the intake centerline is precisely where the cam is intended to be. Topping the short-block was a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. Check out the Comp Cams catalog, even the biggest hydraulic rollers use 110. The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. The 108 LSA offered the lowest idle vacuum of the three (down 4 inches). 08 Additional components used to build the stroker included a set of Comp hydraulic roller lifters, ARP head studs, and a new oil pump. Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! 02 The 402-inch stroker short-block combined an aluminum LS2 block with a 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods. camshaft is a Cranecams F238. The lumpy-idling 101 LSA cam churned out an average of 484.0 hp at 6,100 rpm with 493.9 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm. JavaScript is disabled. The tightest LSA (101) was worth 21.5 lb-ft of torque and a much broader powerbandat the cost of much lower idle vacuum, which would make it more temperamental in a street car. by SStrokerAce Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:22 am, Post That is no accident. . Unfortunately, good street manners are often at odds with performance, as wilder cam timing usually decreases idle and (low-speed) driveability. 292S-112: 292/292 - 240/240 - .495/.495 - 112* - 3400-7200. 110 LSA: On the contrary, if you look at the powerband at 110 LSA, the powerband is comparatively broader. Builds More High-RPM Power Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clearance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance EFFECTS OF CHANGING LOBE SEPERATION ANGLE (LSA) Tighten (smaller LSA number) Moves Torque to Lower RPM Increases Maximum Torque Narrow Power band Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Increase Chance of Engine Knock Increase Cranking Compression Making this the biggest obstacle to overcome when selecting a cam profile with one of our tech advisors, explaining the definition and importance of the Lobe Center. At a lower LSA, the engine reaches the peak of the torque earlier than the standard time but generates a lower RPM.On the contrary, at a higher LSA, the engine reaches the peak torque at a higher resistance level and generates a bulk number of RPM. GRIND #: CRB3 3194 /3196 HR111. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. . . Thats just the way the customer wants to roll, and engine builders find its easy to deliver such a powerplant. It had a robust powerband with tons of usable torque. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. You cannot look at just the LCA without looking at other specs too. The other thing is that you need to tune your ignition advance to maximize your performance. I am trying to pick out a hydraulic roller cam for my 351W with AFR 185s. This wave tuning is what helps performance engines achieve volumetric efficiencies of more than 100 percent. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. How To Properly Replace Ignition CoilsContinue. A cam's lobe separation determines where and for how long peak torque occurs in an engine's rpm range. We even treated them to some chamber work before installation. I believe you have got the idea of what you were seeking. A 112 LSA would be better if I had an automatic, but the engine builder (who has built many, many drag racing engines)told me I would have much faster acceleration with the 108, at the expense of a broader power band of course, but that 108 would not unduly penalize me for the street. An RV or towing camshaft, which is considered a mild performance or an economy cam, will often have a narrower LSA, between 112 and 114 degrees. If you compared these two cams side by side in identical engines, the first cam would actually have a slightly better idle and would produce slightly more peak power at upper RPM's. Tuning this cam would be slightly more difficult due to the reduced idle vacuum, but it is hard to argue with all the extra power. Valve lift will bear weight in any decision regarding LSA. To further minimize any dyno variations, the engine's oil and water temperatures were kept the same for each pull. Some of the confusion on this subject comes from what the meaning of "bottom" and "top" is to the speaker, I suppose. I just installed a Comp Cams XE262 in a 9:1 350 with stock iron heads. Overlap is the amount of time that both valves are open in the same cylinder. Torsion Beam Vs Multi Link: Who Wins the Battle? Another difference between the two involves the power curve. The takeaway from this test is camshaft LSA is a double-edged sword. I have 108 for LSA and my headlights take awhile to go up when the car is idling. Higher lift and longer duration profiles add power, but do so at higher engine speeds (especially true of duration). so it is a solid flat tappet, torker intake, 1" 4-hole tapered spacer and 750 carb (QFT) transmission is a wide ratio toploader, rear is a 9" 3.89 geared 26"rear tires. So, you can enjoy a mighty acceleration power at 110 LSA. by trmnatr Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:45 pm, Post This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. It has been tried in the VW business earlier, but then they gave it up because of problems with too high temperatures around the exhaust valve, causing them them to break. What Is the SBC Header Bolt Torque? 110 LSA: On the contrary, it is pretty unpleasant to inform you that the efficient compression rate decreases at 110 LSA. (ICL + ECL) / 2 = LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE (LSA) LSA is a RESULT of the PROPER events. It a 355. thanks in advance. But, you may find it quite shocking that the piston-to-valve clearances decreasing rate raises the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. by mrsmythe Tue May 13, 2003 5:45 am, Post The SAME can be said. As a result, you can enjoy a pleasing engine outcome. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. Boom, you get the lobe separation angle of that engine. (You can find an instructional video of how to do just that on our Clay Smith Cams YouTube Channel;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s ). by farmer Mon May 12, 2003 3:14 pm, Post I wouldn't assume 4 links fuel requirements will mirror yours at all. A 112-114 degree lobe center will have a better idle and produce more vacuum with less overlap. I had a 110 cam in my beetle and I didn't like it-the bottom end was doggy. Changing the lobe separation angle changes the amount of overlap that exists during the time the intake and exhaust valves are both open, echoes Doug Patton of Pro Line Race Engines. The stock valvesprings supplied with the CNC LS3 heads were swapped out in favor of a set of dual springs from Brian Tooley Racing. I'd also go to a 110-112 lobe separation angle. by Paul H Tue May 13, 2003 1:24 pm, Post Yearh, I have been reading a lot about this issue. The result sounded wonderful, but it didnt rev as enthusiastically and it made 30 less horsepower than normal, says Lawrence. Adding an aftermarket cam to an otherwise stock engine can boost output by 40-60 hp (or more) with no other changes (except possibly a valvespring upgrade). Read More Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About ThemContinue, What causes a car to bog down when accelerating? Howards Cams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft and Lifter Kits CL120325-08. If you're an OEM automaker looking for a steady idle, good fuel economy, and passing tailpipe emissions, this is the cam of choice. Around 70 percent of muscle-car performance cams fall into this range. The 112-degree cam produced peak numbers of 567 hp at 6,200 rpm and 540 lb-ft of torque while pumping out 511 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm. So, without wasting any moment, lets find out the answer. A cam 112LSA with 4 degrees advance puts the intake centerline at 108 degrees. JavaScript is disabled. Do you know what the best lobe separation angle for your car engine is? Known as "The Gladiator" around Westech Performance, this Dart SHP blockbased, 370ci, small-block Chevy has made thousands of dyno pulls testing all manner of heads, intakes, cams, and every other crazy thing us magazine folk have coerced Westech's Steve Brul to bolt to it. JavaScript is disabled. Post We promise not to use your email address for anything but exclusive updates from the Power Automedia Network. A cam with a 112lobe center will idle smoother than a cam with a 110lobe center. 106 LSA: The scale of efficient compression rises at 106 LSA. Methods: We evaluated 30 individuals with PD (62.47.2 years) and 22 age-matched healthy controls (61.06.4 years). I know a little about cams. Now lets move to the exhaust. such as 290 @.050? Your email address will not be published. "Ninety-nine percent of cranking compression is dictated by static compression ratio and intake-valve closing point," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. to use this representational knowledge to guide current and future action. Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. A good amount of idle vacuum or increased idle vacuum found at 110 LSA advances the engines efficiency. 110 LSA: On the contrary, 110LSA has a higher piston-to-valve clearance rate. On the cranking compression test, Brul recorded 175 psi, a 10-psi drop from the outgoing 101 cam. Tests 2 and 3 meant dissecting the motor on the dyno to get the old cam out. We will safeguard your e-mail and only send content you request. That was all, and we have already reached the concluding point. The 114o lobe will add a lot more vacuum at idle. 112 vs 114 lobe centers You cannot tell the differance in the two . Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. While lift and duration are most often discussed when talk turns to cam timing, there is a third variable that has a decided effect on both power and personality. The ported heads were capable of supporting over 700 hp, so we knew they would not be restrictive on our stroker. It's wet flow tested at 690cfm. Frankly cams with a 108-114 lca unless in the perfect combo you won't usually see more than 15hp and you won't really feel the difference except for either a peaky or broad power band. Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? = Moderately Wide 110-108 Deg. The idle quality was better with the 112-degree LSA but not as good as the wider 120-degree cam.The ultra-wide 120-degree LSA lost low-speed power and never recovered, but know that this wide LSA is often beneficial on positive displacement, supercharged applications. More than any other component, the cam profile determines things like idle quality, mileage, and overall driveability. Widening their separation angle helps increase upper rpm power output. Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. 07 Though the CNC-ported heads offered plenty of flow, it was necessary to upgrade the supplied valvesprings. by bug1914 Tue May 13, 2003 2:56 am, Post It should still make close to 600hp and 600tq in my 512" stealth headed big block. A narrower LCA will increase valve overlap and close the (intake) valve earlier, which explains the typical rougher idler and more midrange behaviour. Brul spun the engine over with the dyno's starters and recorded 185 psi of cranking compression. Split duration/lift only helps when your intake/exhaust ratio is low on the exhaust side. Despite no changes in lift or duration, this cam sounded much more aggressive than the other two with wider LSAs. Before getting to the cam profiles, we had to make sure we had a reasonable test engine. If a street car has smaller lift and duration numbers, they might run 112 or 114. On the cranking. 108 vs 112 lobe seperation. Really wide lobe separation angles are used in boosted applications. On larger displacement units 116 to 118 degrees of separation are common. Like one cam is 112 degree and the next is 108 the 108 cam will allow less "leakage"? Defining Lobe Center and It's Importance to Engine Performance: A Blog. With minimal overlap and a steady manifold vacuum signal, they work great with fuel-injection systems and are the norm on modern pushrod engines, such as the LS and Gen III hemi. The #1 intake lobe centerline is usually between 100 any input is appreciated guys, thanks. Generally, naturally aspirated engines run narrower lobe separation angles of around 106 to 108 whereas supercharged, turbo or nitrous engines operate with 112 to 114 and higher. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Disclaimer: Remember to always consult with an expert first before trying anything at home. The world of fuel injection is where wide LSA cams like the 113 really shine. Thanks again. Enter lobe separation angle. Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main Culprit, Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything], Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? BUT, 114 will have more vacuum at idle, which will work better with some fuelinjection. On the surface, the camshaft's job is simpleopen and close the valvesbut beyond that topical description, it's one of the most mysterious and misunderstood engine components. Aeromotive; 913.647.7300; AeromotiveInc.com, AFR Heads; 661.257.8124; AirFlowResearch.com, Federal Mogul/Felpro; 248.354.7700; FederalMogul.com, Mahle; 248.347.9700; Mahle-Aftermarket.com, Scat Enterprises; 310.370.5501 ScatEnterprises.com, SuperFlow Dynamometers and Flow Benches; 515.254.1654; SuperFlow.com. Comparison Table Between 106 Vs 110 Lobe Separation Angle. The takeaway is simple on the surface: A tighter LSA makes more low-end and peak torque at the expense of just a few top-end ponies. To establish the position of each lobe, the traditional reference point is where the lobes reach max lift. The 110o will make more power overall. 106 LSA: At this LSA, the car machine has to confront the reduction of idle vacuum rate quite often. The intake air control valve (IAC), which regulates idle speed, also has to work overtime and often attempts to "catch" the idle, but usually shoots high or low. Because the lobes are closer together on the 101 LSA cam, the intake closing point is advanced (closes earlier) and the piston has more time to build compressionexactly what the gauge showed. "When you've properly tuned a performance motor, you create high- and low-pressure waves in the intake and exhaust that help cylinder filling," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. Brul slid the 113-LSA cam, the widest of the test, into the engine's heart and set about putting all the pieces back in place. Cam swaps are all the rage and for good reason. (2002) et rappel sur une carte hors texte. by Marc Mon May 12, 2003 11:38 am, Post Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. ditto with the above. But, the internal processings are much more complicated. by flat4racer17 Tue May 13, 2003 9:12 pm, Post . Aluminum flywheel & pullies. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:38 pm, Post i've heard of this being done something about the massive amounts of duration allowes gasses to disipate? VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. It also depends on what the vehicle will be used for and if economy and vacuum are important. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the RPM range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the RPM range. So, choose the perfect lobe separation angle for your engine, complying with the requirements of your needs. This was science at work, and with data in tow, it was time to crunch the numbers and find out what was going on. 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. In a blower motor when the valve timing events are where they need to be the lobe sep will usually wind up in the 114-115 range on most Combos. You can modify the lobe center a little bit but not enough to change the actual overlap of the grind. 01 Choosing the right lobe separation angle for your LS cam shouldn't cause anxiety. by MELWAY Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:18 pm, Post The lobe separation angle in a natural car engine conveys a considerable impact, especially regarding the maximum torque. In general, a stock replacement camshaft with duration of less than 200 degrees will have a lobe separation angle of more than 114 degrees. A cam with a 112 lobe center will idle smoother than a cam with a 110 lobe center. The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. = Tight Below 104 Deg. This cam split the difference between the 101 and 113 down the middle, and in theory should have walked the line between the results of the last two tests in every waywhich it did. by Kdub Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:20 am, Post A lower efficient compression rate leads to a higher fuel consumption rate by your engine to produce higher power. Equipped with the 120-degree (LSA) cam, the hybrid stroker produced 570 hp at 6,200 rpm and 535 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 rpm. One segment that truly benefits from a wider LSA is the marine marine market. Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! by jim martin Mon May 12, 2003 7:10 pm, Post Come here to talk with others who like to drive fast. I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. So, which is better? Chuck Lawrence of Jon Kaase Racing Engines was asked to give a 520ci BBF a Pro Stock sound, so he went with a 108 LSA in place of a more conventional 112 LSA. Walter Noah is a process engineer who has a knack for resolving even the toughest technical issue. To illustrate the differences offered by changes in the LSA, we had Crane cams grind us three cam profiles that shared the same lift and duration figures, but differed only in the LSA. 106 LSA: At 106 LSA, the cylinder pressure is a bit higher. I've heard similar cams (only about 5*'s off) and they have a nice rumble to them. Say you have a cam ground on a 115 and the other on a 110. However, it is fixable. Tests have shown that, for a given cam profile, a tighter (smaller) lobe center will produce more average horsepower and a quicker revving engine. This is one of the many reasons why Clay Smith Cams always recommends degreeing your camshaft in using the Lobe Center Method. All rights reserved. On engines equipped with independent intake and exhaust cams, the LSA is adjustable. pump gas, no additive's as well, runs good, i will put the highest octane in, which is 93.. Typically, narrower lobe separation develops peak torque at lower rpm and widening the separation tends to build peak torque higher in the rpm range. probably just enough to get me in trouble.. Like choosing a cam in general, the key to eliminating separation anxiety is to find the proper balance of driveability and performance. 4 Impaired episodic memory and semantic knowledge are common in TLE, although dysexecutive traits . There are General guidelines about the effects of LSA but it should not be the deciding factor in choosing a cam. More over-simplifications: Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. A forum community dedicated to Ford performance owners and enthusiasts. Its the shifting problem again with your Chevy! The 108-degree cam (blue lines) outperformed the other two, but idle quality suffered. Tight LSA cams make excellent low-end torque and have a beautiful power curve. Save Share. The intake lobe centerline is measured in crankshaft degrees. Contrariwise, 106 LSA car engines are the best choice for people seeking energy-efficient cars with moderate engine power. Come join the discussion about restoration, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! Also know as Lobe Separation; Lobe Center is simply the distance between the peak opening points on the Intake and Exhaust lobes. The 120-degree cam minimized torque production through most of the curve, while the 112-degree cam offered more torque but slightly less peak power. in some cases,, the average torque can equal out. In terms of horsepower, the disparity between all three cams was only 6.5 hp, with a scant 100 rpm separating the peaks. Ultimately, it comes down to how you want the engine to run, the car's intended purpose, and what you are willing to tolerate. You must log in or register to reply here. How To Properly Replace Ignition Coils, Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About Them, Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When Accelerating. Many later model engines use wide lobe separation angles to reduce overlap for idle quality and fuel economy. Well, there can be different reasons for this problem. The 112-degree cam offered nearly all the low-speed and mid-range torque of the 108 cam but the peak power suffered above 5,200 rpm. 05 To ensure our stroker combo had sufficient airflow, we installed a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC-ported LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. The final cam was tighter still, with a 108-degree LSA. 03 The 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods were combined with a set of forged asymmetrical pistons from JE. So, sit tight back and explore. Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) These numbers can vary a few inches one way or the other, depending on several other aftermarket factors and your individual engine specifications, so you may want to check your vacuum once the cam is installed. General topics - 76 LA built, CA car with m20. Simply put, the lobe separation angle (LSA) is a measurement of how the intake and exhaust lobes are phased with each other. To overcome this inherent problem in wide LSA camshafts, you simply need a higher-flowing intake port. This has been my long time understanding! For large port heads like the CNC 044's which can use the extra lift 1.4's make a noticable difference. by ANT Mon May 12, 2003 1:47 pm, Post Lobe sepsration is an advanced description for overlap.If you take a cam on a 112,and grind it on a 108,you add more overlap,the time the valves are both open.Narrower lobe centers mean more low end and midrange torque,along with a peakier powerband,and a slightly rougher idle.Tradeoffs are sensitivity to octane ratings,total timing, and air fuel ratio.A lot to swallow I know,hope this helps you. Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. Let's just talk lobe sep angle. Lobe separation angle does. Fixing the ignition coils is essential when you experience issues like engine misfire and the Check Engine light that wont go off. Only once the intake valve has closed can compression begin to build. While most of our customers know what lift and duration are, most are unfamiliar with the term Lobe Center and how it affects the engines performance. All testing was performed with an Aeromotive fuel pump feeding a set of 42-lb/hr injectors. = Moderately Tight 106-104 Deg. Things like idle vacuum, fuel economy, and tuning all factor into picking the right cam. 1-4 It is one of the most common neurological disorders worldwide, 1-5 is among the most common . For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Re: Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110. Pick the cam with the valve timing events that fit the engine best, forget about LSA, it is only a result of the events. This comparison highlights that the 106 LSA is a good performer in a few mechanical aspects than the 110 LSA. If you look at the cam card, you will find a maximum lift column on the card.Now, all you have to do is, add up the two mentioned maximum angles and divide the summation by 2. Call for details with your specific combination. Introduction. The only reason the advance or retard a camshaft profile is to get the timing events where they need to be. Idle quality was rough and the vacuum gauge showed only 9.8 in-Hg (inches of mercury). 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. As the RPM's go up this is not as critical as the higher velocity of the air/fuel moving thru keeps it from getting contaminated. I bet you won't see a bit of difference. I forgot to add that poor vacuum is not much of a concern to me because I have no power accessories. Due to the tightness and frequent overlapping of the intake and exhaust valves, the engine cant generate the high RPM as it is supposed to. 106 LSA: On the contrary, if we look at the 106 LSA, we will find it more advantageous and energy efficient than the 110 LSA engine. It produces peak torque earliercoming on quicker and strongerbut also it falls off quicker too. I have seen a dyno test where an engine using identical duration and lift made more peak power with a 112 LSA than a 110 LSA. Pinning the tail on the perfect cam can certainly be a difficult task. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. 108: 110: 112: 114 . The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. I also like the 106 lobe separation with the intake on 103. On a tight lobe separation, like 106-108 degrees, the engine will build torque quickly and reach its peak early. I'd run it, just be sure to check valve to piston clearance, coil bind and retainer to guide boss/seal clearance. 110 LSA) and Crane's #341191 (238/248, .563"/.587", 114 LSA), display considerably different characteristics. 106 LSA: There is an increasing chance of engine knock at the 106 lobe separation angle. 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree) LSA (green lines) lost considerable torque to the other two cams. http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220, http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en6em_camshaft_specs/lobe_seperation_angle.html.

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